tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8537045684820674531.post7888340117849219718..comments2024-03-29T04:11:05.026-07:00Comments on Consider The Source: Humanitarian Military Intervention - Peace Through Superior Firepower?mikeyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13057701313718589322noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8537045684820674531.post-22778558164156243012011-06-12T16:44:05.942-07:002011-06-12T16:44:05.942-07:00Actually, I was putting you in the "cynicalle...Actually, I was putting you in the "cynicaller than thou" group. And you gotta admit, you're quite a long way down that road. But you're right. As I acknowledged, we haven't seen how they'll manage the end-game and disengagement process. Lots of room for error.<br /><br />For me, though, your argument SOUNDS like "we've failed so often, we should just do nothing". If that's not what you're saying, I apologize, but I think that's the WORST possible decision...mikeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13057701313718589322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8537045684820674531.post-22980851217224389802011-06-12T11:57:37.759-07:002011-06-12T11:57:37.759-07:00One, your cynicism is excessive. If EVERYBODY is c...<i>One, your cynicism is excessive. If EVERYBODY is corrupt but you, then maybe you need to reexamine the evidence. </i><br /><br />Did I say that? Heck, I didn't even earn a paycheck in the last few months. What could be more corrupt than that in today's America?<br /><br />You are saying, "Some lives have been saved, here." <br /><br />I am adding "for now...and we've seen this movie before, and the so-called heroes have a bad record overall when it comes to saving lives, not to mention being honest about why they are doing what they're doing."<br /><br />The facts support my statement, don't they?<br /><br />P.S. Please don't put me in the 'holier than thou' brigade. <br /><br />If you like, I can direct you to threads where that brigade finds me apostate for stating that as bad as I find Obama and today's Democratic party to be, the Republican party is still the bad cop.<br />~ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®©https://www.blogger.com/profile/06252371815131259831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8537045684820674531.post-80629347911954049932011-06-12T08:27:00.308-07:002011-06-12T08:27:00.308-07:00All questions very much worth asking, although I t...All questions very much worth asking, although I think there's no question that energy resources DO factor into the decisions as to whether to use military force. But I'd say two things.<br /><br />One, your cynicism is excessive. If EVERYBODY is corrupt but you, then maybe you need to reexamine the evidence. I know for a fact that there are good people in the Military, the State Dept. and in NonGovs. There absolutely ARE people for whom the driving consideration is exclusively humanitarian. There are corrupt people in leadership positions, sure, but to speak as if there are none who are NOT corrupt is just as silly as denying there are any.<br /><br />And no matter what the motivations, I'll go back once again to the undeniable fact that thousands of lives HAVE been saved. Benghazi still holds, and the battle is primarily between combatants, albeit in urban environments. There is brutality and atrocity, but massively below the level there would have been without the intervention. <br /><br />That's a very good outcome...mikeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13057701313718589322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8537045684820674531.post-19327988842425024762011-06-11T14:17:27.866-07:002011-06-11T14:17:27.866-07:00The stated goal may not be the real goal.
Worth r...The stated goal may not be the real goal.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/06/11/libya" rel="nofollow">Worth reading</a>, imho.<br /><i><br />(1) The reason -- the only reason -- we know about any of this is because WikiLeaks (and, allegedly, Bradley Manning) disclosed to the world the diplomatic cables which detail these conflicts.<br /><br />(2) Is there anyone -- anywhere -- who actually believes that these aren't the driving considerations in why we're waging this war in Libya? After almost three months of fighting and bombing -- when we're so far from the original justifications and commitments that they're barely a distant memory -- is there anyone who still believes that humanitarian concerns are what brought us and other Western powers to the war in Libya?</i><br /><br />Is Glenn Greenwald right? He isn't always. But I know I can't trust our government to tell the truth about anything they do. <br /><br />They're going after Bradley Manning and Wikileaks a lot harder than they are people who have done massively greater crimes...and all with applause from the New York Times and Washington Post.<br />~ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®©https://www.blogger.com/profile/06252371815131259831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8537045684820674531.post-21260202723434813642011-06-11T14:15:37.980-07:002011-06-11T14:15:37.980-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®©https://www.blogger.com/profile/06252371815131259831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8537045684820674531.post-27067021494217013102011-06-09T07:18:15.729-07:002011-06-09T07:18:15.729-07:00Your point is valid, and important, although the t...Your point is valid, and important, although the thing that goes unmentioned is that Iraq was objectively a failure - the only people who claimed it was a success were some with an ideological dog in that fight and the media that supports them on every issue. In order to define a success, you have to have a criterion FOR success, and as an unnecessary, unprovoked and completely optional aggressive war, there just aren't a lot of standards by which it could be judged a 'success'.<br /><br />The stated goal of the Libyan intervention was to prevent loyalist forces from slaughtering non combatants, and I think you can reach the conclusion pretty easily that to this point that has been accomplished, with a relatively limited use of violence...mikeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13057701313718589322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8537045684820674531.post-44141433123904636772011-06-09T06:15:21.293-07:002011-06-09T06:15:21.293-07:00So far, I think it is completely fair to see Libya...<i>So far, I think it is completely fair to see Libya as a success. </i><br /><br />Iraq was also considered a success at one point (and still is, for those who sell arms and petrochemicals).<br /><br />The problem isn't saying that a place could be found where military intervention might be a net humanitarian plus, it's all those real-world examples wherein "War is Hell".<br /><br />You know what <i>they say</i> about doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result...<br />~ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®©https://www.blogger.com/profile/06252371815131259831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8537045684820674531.post-69283614603552771432011-06-07T18:23:30.195-07:002011-06-07T18:23:30.195-07:00yea. I am with you, that I am willing to kill the...yea. I am with you, that I am willing to kill the motherfuckers who want to kill me.<br /><br />But that's where the squicky stuff comes in. We can't save everybody. So who do we jump in to save, and how do we save them?<br /><br />But in my weird ass PV, I really don't think that bombing the shit out of everything is a good approach.zombie rotten mcdonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10601960953323752278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8537045684820674531.post-31640135881444162172011-06-07T16:12:43.505-07:002011-06-07T16:12:43.505-07:00Yeah. I didn't expect everyone to agree with ...Yeah. I didn't expect everyone to agree with me. Hell, I'm not certain I agree with me. But I'm sure of one thing. If nobody does anything, a lot of innocent and helpless people are gonna die hard. And, at least up to this point, the Libyan intervention has saved FAR more lives than it's taken. And for that matter, some deftly applied modern combat power might have saved a million lives in Rwanda and Sudan - I just can't see how anybody's better off for the not trying.<br /><br />And those 8000 victims of Mladic's brutality in Srebrenica? They CAME there because the fucking UN promised them they'd be protected there. They had troops, armor and air. Yeah, the Serbian army was scary, and they would have taken some casualties. But the craven cowardice to walk away and leave those people to the tender mercies of Mladic and his thugs, who then marched away without a fight, just makes me want to hit somebody. Sometimes you just have to fight them...mikeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13057701313718589322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8537045684820674531.post-26695378003232844302011-06-07T15:36:48.512-07:002011-06-07T15:36:48.512-07:00My canned response is that 'war never improves...My canned response is that 'war never improves anything'.<br /><br />I concede that some wars become necessary, vis. WWI, WWII, others may be arguable. But the aftermath is always, always a net loss.<br /><br />The only way to turn it around is through Marshall Plan type rebuilding, and in that case, wouldn't it be better to spend that money on aid and infrastructure BEFORE killing all those people?zombie rotten mcdonaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10601960953323752278noreply@blogger.com